650b
- Thread starter BonsaiMTB
- Start date
don
Well-Known Member
I just got back from Vermont and rode 4 days straight of XC trail (first real time riding XC all year actually).
I mostly rode my 26" Sinister Gruitr with 2.5/2.35 rubber and a stiff ass Argyle up front (my Fox blew up a while ago and I haven't had a chance to send it back to get fixed).
The last day I demo'd a Santa Cruz Bronson with 650 wheels. There were a LOT of variables between the Gruitr and the Bronson (total different sussy design, tube vs tubeless, wider bars) but I know the trails well up in that area from riding them over the last 10+ years.
Here are are few things I noticed on the ride thru Town Loops on the 650b Bronson:
- the 650 wasn't a huge weird jump from 26. Stand over seemed the same as my low Gruitr
- it seemed I could run one gear higher/harder even with the bigger wheels - I kept it in the middle ring the whole ride and there were some decent sized climbs. Common sense would say one gear lower would be needed. (Although honestly I am not sure what the gear range was - my Sinister is a 1x10 with a 32x34 low gear)
- I made some tech short steep climbs I usually have to redo when I rode them in years past
- I blew a short steep climb that had a sharp turn in it that I make on the Gruitr.
- the 650s and the Bronson like to go fast and stay on the ground
- overall I felt less beat up on the ride but I also feel like had less fun popping over rollers and jumping things and picking lines.
Would I buy a 650b rig? Probably - I think a 29er would be fine for the local trails of central NJ but would be a lot less fun for me. A 650 seems like a good compromise for still being flickable but carrying speed/less effort on climbs and making for a smoother ride.
PS - one interesting thing I noticed on a ride on the Sinister was that I was going the opposite way of every other rider: up the double track and easier singletrack and down the misty, tech sniggle with some skinny and option lines thrown in (Kimmers trail). I asked Ron at iRide if there was a direction change or something that day. He said it was the demographics - people rather climb the tough stuff and descend the smooth stuff. Most if not all of the riders on trail that night were on 29ers. My thinking is the art of threading trail and picking lines and body english that many of us moldy oldies had to learn riding rigid 26s could become a lost technique.
And if anyone cares - a couple of GoPro pics of some of the stuff I rode on Kimmers:
I mostly rode my 26" Sinister Gruitr with 2.5/2.35 rubber and a stiff ass Argyle up front (my Fox blew up a while ago and I haven't had a chance to send it back to get fixed).
The last day I demo'd a Santa Cruz Bronson with 650 wheels. There were a LOT of variables between the Gruitr and the Bronson (total different sussy design, tube vs tubeless, wider bars) but I know the trails well up in that area from riding them over the last 10+ years.
Here are are few things I noticed on the ride thru Town Loops on the 650b Bronson:
- the 650 wasn't a huge weird jump from 26. Stand over seemed the same as my low Gruitr
- it seemed I could run one gear higher/harder even with the bigger wheels - I kept it in the middle ring the whole ride and there were some decent sized climbs. Common sense would say one gear lower would be needed. (Although honestly I am not sure what the gear range was - my Sinister is a 1x10 with a 32x34 low gear)
- I made some tech short steep climbs I usually have to redo when I rode them in years past
- I blew a short steep climb that had a sharp turn in it that I make on the Gruitr.
- the 650s and the Bronson like to go fast and stay on the ground
- overall I felt less beat up on the ride but I also feel like had less fun popping over rollers and jumping things and picking lines.
Would I buy a 650b rig? Probably - I think a 29er would be fine for the local trails of central NJ but would be a lot less fun for me. A 650 seems like a good compromise for still being flickable but carrying speed/less effort on climbs and making for a smoother ride.
PS - one interesting thing I noticed on a ride on the Sinister was that I was going the opposite way of every other rider: up the double track and easier singletrack and down the misty, tech sniggle with some skinny and option lines thrown in (Kimmers trail). I asked Ron at iRide if there was a direction change or something that day. He said it was the demographics - people rather climb the tough stuff and descend the smooth stuff. Most if not all of the riders on trail that night were on 29ers. My thinking is the art of threading trail and picking lines and body english that many of us moldy oldies had to learn riding rigid 26s could become a lost technique.
And if anyone cares - a couple of GoPro pics of some of the stuff I rode on Kimmers:
Attachments
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
Your comparing a single-pivot bike to one with VPP, slacker geometry, and more travel, and probably less weight. That alone would support your observations. Interested to do a back to back ride of Bronson vs. 650b Bronson. Thats what I did with 5.5 Spot vs. Burner.
don
Well-Known Member
So true and I noted there were differences. The wider bars and tubeless only would be a pretty big changes on my own rig. The 2 bikes are almost worlds apart for being in close to the same category (XC trail, dual suspension).
I am sure you are right that the VPP alone would give me the quicker feel and less beat up ride. I could swear I noticed some thing about the 650b wheel - on slow tech stuff it seemed more stable but not as maneuverable as a 26" wheel. I think that is why I blew the one climb that I make on the Sinister. Even the 2nd time trying it, it was still tricky for me. Tech climbs where the front wheel could be straight were easier.
But who knows for sure - I would love to do a Heckler 26" back to back with the new Heckler 650b. I think the single pivot might show the difference in wheel size even more so.
Will go back and read your Burner vs 5-Spot comparison. After riding something more modern I am thinking of a new frame and fork (and maybe wheels if I go 650b) and the Turner is on my look at list.
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
The Burner vs. Spot comparison was interesting. The differences were subtle. Both bikes were speced out almost the same. Side by side, the Burner was slightly longer. Out on the trail, I couldn't tell that one "rolled" over anything better than the other. No difference there. Climbing, the Spot definitely handled switchbacks a little better, and accelerated a little better. Don't know if this was due to wheel size or the Burner being a degree more slack in the head. Descending at speed, the Burner felt a little more stable, but again, was this due to slacker geometry? Slower speed tech stuff, I liked the Spot better. Slightly easier to lift the front wheel and move the bike around. Jumping, I liked the Spot better because it was a little easier to get the wheel up. But again, couldn't tell if it was wheel size or geometry. End of the day, differences were subtle, but I got the Spot because I figured that if I ever wanted that little bit of extra stability, I could get a longer fork or angle-set and have the slacker geometry.
Interestingly, Turner has steepened the geometry on the 2014 Burner.
Interestingly, Turner has steepened the geometry on the 2014 Burner.
cuda
Active Member
http://flowmountainbike.com/2013/07/flows-first-bite-giant-trance-advanced-27-5-0/
When is this coming to jersey?
When is this coming to jersey?
Depending on the size and model, next week.
Stop by and we will chat it up and I will show you the whole line. YOU are a 27.5 guy in my eyes.
..until you tested a 29er..
jdgang
Well-Known Member
yes but if you have always had a 27.5 would the change to 29er be that great enough to change? I personally don't know since I have never ridden a 27.5. Anybody I have talk to about a 27.5 have always been on a 29er prior and their reaction always is the same MEH My Anthem X 29er is a fantastic bike and personally I am a little pissed at Giant that they are hinting at dropping the bike. Not that I am planning on buying a new bike anytime soon but you never know.
don
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info on the two Turners. One build I was thinking is a Turner 5 spot and run big rubber - like 2.5. And I can probably pick up a 2011-2012 for decent money. (I have no problem buying a used Turner with how well they are build and their CS)
One thing I didn't like about the Bronson was at slow speed it was hard to manual. The guys at iRide said you need to be hauling ass to get a good manual (like 30+ MPH). For me I like tossing the bike around at all speeds and picking tech lines at slow speeds is very fun for me. Haven't heard much bad about DW tech either so I'm sure it would be a huge bump in performance over the Sinister single pivot.
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
If you're looking for used Spots, look for 2012 or newer. They revised the geometry in 2010, and added the rear thru axle in 2012. Coming from a bike with no thu axle to one that has one, the difference is huge. Also, this bike is perfect for slow speed tech like you find back in Ringwood and Wayway, where you need to wheelie drop and throw it up and over things.
don
Well-Known Member
So I bought a used 5 Spot last night off of PinkBike. 2011/2012 - it has the 142 rear end and the 44 HT. Fox CTD shock. Looks like it has low miles from the pics. Not sure if I am going down with a sinking ship with the 26" wheels but will see.
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
We'll both go down on the SS26 but with smiles on our faces, because its a great bike, you won't care once you start riding it and smoking all your buddies with bigger wheels. What color did you get? Also, with that suspension design, you don't have to run a ton of preload in the rear.
don
Well-Known Member
haha - the SS26 - should be a signature tag for us 26" trail bike users.
The more I thought about riding that Bronson the more I thought it was indeed the suspension design and tubeless tires that helped me over the ride on the single pivot GRUITR. And looking at the pictures of the 5 Spot and the Burner - the 5 Spot just looks totally correct in terms of angles and proportions.
http://www.pinkbike.com/photo/9928353/
Can't go wrong with black - and I need to get new hubs anyway so will go with some blue ano'd Hope's to add some color. I haven't had a new trail frame since 2008 when I got the Sinister so pretty stoked.
Which bike did you get? Would be fun to roast some trail with you. If you still have the DJ bike and want to ride, our stuff has been working really well. We might have a GTG this fall.
don
Well-Known Member
why suspension? if it is supposed to be so pure, then rigid ss 26 is wtg.
Never said anything about a 26" full sussy rig as being pure, just that it is now outdated and being phased out.
BTW - 26" rigid SS has the retro crouch custom steel frame/fork thing going so you boys are safe. But I would keep an eye on the fat tire guys. They can ride on snow and sand so will claim to be the purest.