I disagree, it isn't guessing at all. Cavendish is a double world champion on the track, he has already won one of the monuments. Box score analyses doesn't apply, this isn't fantasy football. I say Cavendish is the best sprinter of this generation, with or without Renshaw; he proved it in 2010. Farrar is older, and will spend his whole career in Cavendish's shadow; barring injuries to Cav. I don't dislike Farrar at all. The only thing I hold against him are those effeminate contact lense ads he made a couple of years ago.
Le Tour!
- Thread starter NJ-XC-Justin
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I disagree, it isn't guessing at all. Cavendish is a double world champion on the track, he has already won one of the monuments. Box score analyses doesn't apply, this isn't fantasy football. I say Cavendish is the best sprinter of this generation, with or without Renshaw; he proved it in 2010. Farrar is older, and will spend his whole career in Cavendish's shadow; barring injuries to Cav. I don't dislike Farrar at all. The only thing I hold against him are those effeminate contact lense ads he made a couple of years ago.
So just so we're arguing the same thing here. If you put Cav on Garmin-Cervelo, you think he'd have 4 stage wins at this point? And putting Farrar on HTC, that he would only have 1?
I mean, that's what I'm proposing here. This isn't based on history at all, just what I see when I watch. If you're saying that you think the score would be 4-1 with the roles reversed, I'm just going to disagree.
I think that's far too algebraicillay literal. Heads-up, Cavendish beats Farrar most of the time. Cavendish has shown that he can win with and without the HTC train. Of course it's better "with". All I'm saying is that Cav is faster, and perhaps even more significantly, a more intelligence bike racer. Cav finds ways to win that Farrar will never see.
That's fine, and you may be right. You've got more historical reference than I do. From what I see, I don't know that I agree he's faster/stronger. More intelligent, I can agree with even based on the limited amount I've seen.
p9group
New Member
Norm, you couldn't be more right in your assessment of caven-crybaby. :cry:
Yes, he is fast in the last 200m. No doubt. fact is he over rated.
Without HTC and their almost perfect lead out train, he rarely wins.
Head to head without lead outs, he is not the fastest sprinter.
He has lost on many occasions when he didn't have his 4 or 5 guys
leading him out. Even Paul and Phil have remarked many times that without his team he doesn't win very often. Got give HTC and those riders big props. They are monsters at leading him out and controlling the peloton in the last few k's.
He is one twisted up guy inside. Super angry and many emotional issues. The guy is high-strung and cannot control his emotions. Evident by his anger, then his balling and crying then his apologies, he is all over the emotional map. He makes a 15 year love struck old school girl look stable.
But, getting back to his ability- as a pure sprinter, one on one without lead outs, he is not the best or the fastest. He's good, very good, but not the best. He had a solid track record as well. But comparing him to EM as far stage wins goes in the TdF is just ridiculous as some on other boards have suggested. I think Cipollini was a much better sprinter as well.
Cav is a head case and can basically only sprint. To me a guy like Thor is a much, much better cyclist. The fact that he won stage 13, with an HC climb was simply amazing. One of best wins of all time. In fact, Bob said tonight, that no sprinter has ever a mountain stage in the TdF in its history.
I'll take the Viking warrior over the nappy wearing man-boy any day. 😉
Maybe as he ages he will mature and become a great cyclist, but for now
he is flashy and sporadic, though he is winning. He seems to have the makings to be great, if he doesn't sabotage his own career. Whether he can get his emotions under control will be the real hurdle for him.
Just look what happened to LeMond. He lost it and fell apart.
That poor guy unraveled like a suit from K Mart.
A champion with sociopathic and paranoia tendencies does not make for
a great, lasting legacy.
I checked last year's results and stand corrected. Andy and Contador rode away from the field twice last year. Both in the Alps.
In Stage 15, they were 2min ahead of Sammy Sanchez.
Stage 16 was chaingate.
In Stage 17, they were 1min 18sec ahead of Oliver Rodriguez and about 1min 30sec ahead of other contenders.
None of the other contenders for this year (Evans, Basso, F Schleck) were really contenders last year. So I guess its a matter of if Evans and Basso can take on Andy when he attacks in the Alps .. or if Cantador can find some kind of form to blow them away. Or if Frank can attack successfully .. which will be interesting because that will cause Andy to stay back instead of tracking down his own teammate.
I checked some TT results from past years and the stronger GC guys seem to have anywhere from 35sec to 1min 30sec advantage on Andy (depending on how they're feeling, the course, etc..). So it's not like Andy is chop liver in the TT, but he will definitely need to put about 1-2min on Evans in the mountains to have a better chance. Frank is even worse in the TT.
Based on last 2 year's results, I am waiting for Evans to blow up in the Alps and I don't think Basso is gonna make it either. Even though he may not look as strong as last year, I think putting money on Andy is the best bet.
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(Including hanging onto cars😀)
I like Tyler a lot. He's a straight up sprinter. Cav, though, could end up on the books a lot. Milan-San Remo two years ago was completely off the charts. His finest win by far. And no train to be found anywhere. Not even a push-cart. (Ah, crap, I forgot Hincapie!) Eventually he'll calm down and stop doing weird shit (like crashing Hausler and Boonen out of the Tour de Suisse last year and pointing at his glasses as a victory salute), but remember he's only 24.
Also, if this transfer to Sky happens at the end of the year and Renshaw doesn't go with him, it's gonna be like watching someone get used to prosthetics. Renshaw is a genius. Yes, Cav wins without him, but... A lot of sprinters are amazing when they have the kind of symbiotic relationship Renshaw and Cav have. But when people move on (Eros Poli and Cipollini, Gert Steegmans and McEwen, Petacchi and the Milram train) there's a period of re-adjustment. I have no doubt that Cav'll make that leap (see MSR above), but watching it will be fascinating. Especially since, unlike HTC, Sky is a team with GC contenders and some serious punching power. May not be quite as much left over on the team bus for Cav.
Tyler on HTC would be amazing, and he'd've won a lot more, I think. When Tyler gets that train - when Thor led TF to victory at Terreno Adriatico - he can deliver. When it's the Garmin train though, it doesn't always work so well. The next stage Thor mistimed the lead-out and left TF dangling in the wind. Conversely, if Cav was on Garmin, he'd be at the end of the chow line like Thor, who's desperate to get out of there.
Oh, boy, can you tell this was a rest day?
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I am far from a TdF nut, but my novice perception thus far:
The last mountain stage (was it the one Sanchez won?), there was a lot of critique about the 'front-runners' not being able to pull on each other or even Voeckler for that matter. Pro tour cycling is 60% olympics, 40% chess. I think it is safe to say that Contador, the Schlecks, Evans, all of 'em were holding back drastically. They all know that it is going to come down to the Alps stages, so why burn precious energy in the Pyrenees? The next few days are where I think we will see a completely different side to almost every top contender.
My hat is off to Voeckler, but given the fact that he was able to hang steadily with those big names says nothing of a yellow jersey miracle; the top guys just aren't putting it all out there... yet.
I can't stand Contador's attitude and was really cheering for Andy Schleck last year. Partly because it was versus Alberto, but also because big brother wasn't there to cuddle with him and he grew a pair and went for top spot. There was a fire there in 2010. Frank is back, and the two of 'em are little sissies again. More concerned with keeping each other close enough to hold hands than one of them saying 'Fuck Off' to the other and taking off. Their 2-man slingshot technique is a joke if either of them actually want to win the damn race.
The last mountain stage (was it the one Sanchez won?), there was a lot of critique about the 'front-runners' not being able to pull on each other or even Voeckler for that matter. Pro tour cycling is 60% olympics, 40% chess. I think it is safe to say that Contador, the Schlecks, Evans, all of 'em were holding back drastically. They all know that it is going to come down to the Alps stages, so why burn precious energy in the Pyrenees? The next few days are where I think we will see a completely different side to almost every top contender.
My hat is off to Voeckler, but given the fact that he was able to hang steadily with those big names says nothing of a yellow jersey miracle; the top guys just aren't putting it all out there... yet.
I can't stand Contador's attitude and was really cheering for Andy Schleck last year. Partly because it was versus Alberto, but also because big brother wasn't there to cuddle with him and he grew a pair and went for top spot. There was a fire there in 2010. Frank is back, and the two of 'em are little sissies again. More concerned with keeping each other close enough to hold hands than one of them saying 'Fuck Off' to the other and taking off. Their 2-man slingshot technique is a joke if either of them actually want to win the damn race.
ArmyOfNone
Well-Known Member
Wanna throw my two cents in on Cav while I continue to read on here. Cav def plays things up. I thought and called him at many times a "baby" and thought he needed to suck it up and race his freaking bike.
I think he quits when he sees he is not going to win. But if youre not going to win why waste the effort? Thats what he is there for. Second place doesnt mean squat.
Now what I enjoy the most about Cav which keeps him in my good graces is that he gives credit where credit is due. Yes he is the fastest man out there. but those boys who lead him out are fearless, ruthless and bad ass. He waits for everyone to cross the finish and thank them for what they have done for him. In his interviews he says he failed the team if he didnt finish with a win.
I dont know what he is like off camera. But he seems to get it right when its in front of him. And I have not read to much to the contrary. He is a good teammate. Does he have issues? Yes for sure. Is he fast HELLS YES. Kill it Cav!
I think he quits when he sees he is not going to win. But if youre not going to win why waste the effort? Thats what he is there for. Second place doesnt mean squat.
Now what I enjoy the most about Cav which keeps him in my good graces is that he gives credit where credit is due. Yes he is the fastest man out there. but those boys who lead him out are fearless, ruthless and bad ass. He waits for everyone to cross the finish and thank them for what they have done for him. In his interviews he says he failed the team if he didnt finish with a win.
I dont know what he is like off camera. But he seems to get it right when its in front of him. And I have not read to much to the contrary. He is a good teammate. Does he have issues? Yes for sure. Is he fast HELLS YES. Kill it Cav!
Finally.... and instigated by who? Schlecks = no balls.
This DH is sick!!!!!!
This DH is sick!!!!!!
No balls.... even on the decent. Hmmmm find the Mt Bikers in the crowd.:getsome:
Voekler = madman!
Voekler = madman!
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= great racing!
I would say that rumors of the Spaniard's death are greatly exaggerated as well.
2 different people just asked me this question: Why is Thor so far down in the standings?
So, we all see how well he does when he does well. Thor is awesome, probably 1 of my favorite riders out there. But he can't bring the bring the pain every day and in the huge mountains like the real GC guys can.
For example, stage 12, when Frank actually attacked and gapped the GC field by a little bit, Thor finished 33 minutes back. He's back there with many other guys who just scrape themselves up those mountains, just trying to survive another day.
My take is that on any given day, any one of these guys can hang on the front. I think that's why it's not a surprise to see the yellow jersey stay with Thor, or Voekler, once they get it. You ride to your limit and damn the consequences. You worry about them when you pop. I won't be surprised to see Voekler just drop like a brick once he loses yellow, assuming he does (after today his predictions seem pretty accurate).
So a guy like Thor brings it when he can, and stays home when he has no chance to save for another day. Same sort of thing as Cav, just not quite so pronounced.
At least that's my take.
So, we all see how well he does when he does well. Thor is awesome, probably 1 of my favorite riders out there. But he can't bring the bring the pain every day and in the huge mountains like the real GC guys can.
For example, stage 12, when Frank actually attacked and gapped the GC field by a little bit, Thor finished 33 minutes back. He's back there with many other guys who just scrape themselves up those mountains, just trying to survive another day.
My take is that on any given day, any one of these guys can hang on the front. I think that's why it's not a surprise to see the yellow jersey stay with Thor, or Voekler, once they get it. You ride to your limit and damn the consequences. You worry about them when you pop. I won't be surprised to see Voekler just drop like a brick once he loses yellow, assuming he does (after today his predictions seem pretty accurate).
So a guy like Thor brings it when he can, and stays home when he has no chance to save for another day. Same sort of thing as Cav, just not quite so pronounced.
At least that's my take.