650b
- Thread starter BonsaiMTB
- Start date
I think you should pimp yo'self shamelessly, but that's just me. I don't run the place.😛
I did a little poking around, I've heard your designs are well under 17 inch stays? I know it can vary by build, but wow. I had a GF X-cal for a bit, stays at 445mm, and that thing was blast to throw around (and would climb anything while on the back wheel😉), just too stiff for rocky terrain. Giant has the XTC 29er at 17.3, which looks fun but again it's a stiff racy frame.
Do you think the big makers are going to keep striving for better 29er geometry, or bail into 650b, or...what? 😀
FWIW, love your stuff and maybe one day...
Hey...did you get my email?
bystickel
Member
MTBs started our with long stays and slack angles, great for descending fire roads, which was what the pioneers did with their bikes. As they evolved, they all got HAs of 70-71, SAs of 72-73, BBs 11.75-12.25, and CSs 16.75-17, by the mid-90s. Those, esp the CS# allowed folks to climb and descend steep stuff, while retaining the ability to weight or loft either end of the bike with minimal effort. Today's bikes vary a bit, but the proportions that worked then still work now. Messing with them, as long-stay 29ers do, isn't good for riders who really want to use the bike for techy terrain.
Short stays do provide a firmer ride than long ones. It's like sitting in the middle of the bus or over the axle. It's a small difference, but if the riders wants maximum control and the plushest ride, I suggest supple tires with sealant, optimized tire pressure, and a comfortable post. You get WAY more compliance from these than any rigid frame can provide.
I think more and more will make short-stay 29ers (the Kona Hanzo came out after the designer saw a number of my frames on the trail. he even got the Hanzo name from a friend's facebook post about me). I see 650 becoming a lot more popular for FS, and there being a mix of 650b and sort and long-stay 29ers, going forward. I'l probably lean toward 29er, but am always open to change.
(and, Bonsai, if your name is Chris, I just replied to 2 of you (; )
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
We have different memories of the mid-90's. I remember really long stems somehow paired with long top tubes and skinny tires pumped to the low-40's minimum. All this and every manufacturer was trying to make their frames as stiff as possible. We've come a long way. I'll take my SIR9 any day.
The Kalmyk
Well-Known Member
His bike is really nice... I follow that cat hard, love that blog
Edit: Rich should be invited to the Misfits rides... He will show with the sickest one
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I was never a fan of Fisher...but when I test rode a mid ninetys Marlin Hard Tail with super short stays...I feel in love with the traction and agility of the bike....I'm still a fan of short stays..but its very rare to see them today. FS there is really no such thing...right?
bystickel
Member
I think that Lenz offers something with short stays and rear travel. One of them has a BB-centric chainstay pivot and I'd avoid that.
I built a 5" FS prototype to check out some suspension design ideas and put adjustable dropouts on it, so that I could test length. The higher BB needed for FS and the fact that the rear suspension compresses when you lean back to manual mean that you probably don't want a CS that's quite as short as on a hardtail.
Mine was adjustable down to 16.5 or so (I'm 6', all leg). 16.75 was too short for me, and I ended up liking it right at 17". Any shorter, and the front was a little light, both climbing and manualing.
I would love to get the FS into production because it'd be idea for techy terrain. The development costs are beyond what a small framebuilder (at least this one) can manage.
I built a 5" FS prototype to check out some suspension design ideas and put adjustable dropouts on it, so that I could test length. The higher BB needed for FS and the fact that the rear suspension compresses when you lean back to manual mean that you probably don't want a CS that's quite as short as on a hardtail.
Mine was adjustable down to 16.5 or so (I'm 6', all leg). 16.75 was too short for me, and I ended up liking it right at 17". Any shorter, and the front was a little light, both climbing and manualing.
I would love to get the FS into production because it'd be idea for techy terrain. The development costs are beyond what a small framebuilder (at least this one) can manage.
So, essentially you think there is an ideal base mtb geometry? It's tough to figure whats best because it's so subjective between riders. I guess if you try a given design with enough different riders it'll average out. But then if you're using experienced riders for feedback, they'll gravitate to the familiar design. I wouldn't even know what to ask for if I ordered a custom frame!
Interesting that the large makers are still trying to "shrink" the 29er incrementally instead of saying "this is the right number to hit. Find a way."
There was a fairly recent Sherwood Gibson interview in Dirt Rag (or maybe BIKE) where he mentioned that his favorite go-to bike was a 69r.
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bystickel
Member
Well, there's an 'ideal' for each rider on each terrain, but while riders may vary by what seems like a lot, the range of practical bike geometry is still pretty small.
I like to build a bike that allows the rider to get the most out of their technical ability. Luckily, building a bike for folks who don't care for technical riding isn't much different from building for those who do, geometry-wise. Geometry that allows for superior rear traction, for instance, also benefits those who just want a bike that feels light and quick out of corners and on climbs.
This discussion could go on, forever... and it'd put you to sleep, for sure (;
Living in the east coast...and doing most (all) of my riding here...it seems like the standard geometery (73/71?) has always been ideal for here...once FS came to be in the mid to late 90's it changed everything with higher bottom brackets and such....my specialized Pitch is awkward for me at best. Its never felt right underneith me...I love the way it looks..but not to impressed with the way it rides..feels slower and the steering is very sluggish. I'd love to get my hands on a old medium sized Trek STP soft tail...for where I live/ride 1.5 inches of travel is more than enough 🙂
If you saw the data I compiled when I went frame shopping...I'd disagree.😀
The funny thing is the numbers don't tell the whole story. On One's Inbred, while considered a solid frame, has never been mentioned as ultra nimble. Yet the stay length is fairly short in class. Which is why frame buying sucks and custom is even harder. I know what I'd want the bike to do, but do the numbers really translate? It's fun to think about the dream bike though..😉
Any new 650b riders here. I just caught wind of what 2014 will bring. Good luck finding a 26" wheeled bike that isn't a DH bike.
Looks like it will be a all 650b or 29er at the trade shows this year.
The issue I see here is that no one is asking for it. Every tire mfg. is on board before the bikes are really being built.
There is a hair bit of component glut looming.
Any thoughts??
I was out hiking in the sourlands today and I had thoughts of why a 650b might be a great choice for the rocks.
Looks like it will be a all 650b or 29er at the trade shows this year.
The issue I see here is that no one is asking for it. Every tire mfg. is on board before the bikes are really being built.
There is a hair bit of component glut looming.
Any thoughts??
I was out hiking in the sourlands today and I had thoughts of why a 650b might be a great choice for the rocks.
Monkey Soup
Angry Wanker
This cracks me up. The mere existence of 650b acknowledges that 29" handles like shit (at least for FS anyway). Another instance of giving us something we never even asked for, like compact SUVs. So 650 is supposed to give us the best of both worlds. Won't handle as good as a 26", and won't "roll over" stuff as good as a 29". You can keep buying the trade show hype, but Im willing to bet that 26" will be around for a good long time.
So have you ridden one or what?
I have not had a good ride on one, and like it or not, 650b is coming harder and faster than the 29er thing did.
Many Mfgers missed the first wave of sales with 29ers and they don't want to miss the boat on the 650b thing.
I for one like the way that 29ers handle. I have had plenty of chances to ride 26 & 29er bikes back to back and 29 just works for me. I do however think that 650b has merit and based on the # of companies bringing out 650b bikes in the near future, this wheel size is going to be relevant in the very near future.
Scoff all you like at 29, but we ride in NJ and in NJ 29ers are far far outselling 26" wheels. 650b stands to convert those who have not embraced 29.
I just took a quick glance at Qbp (the nation's biggest parts distributor) and noted that they are stocking 20 unique 650b tires at this point. This alone shows the investment in this wheel size.
I personally look forward to getting some time on a 650b bike in the near future, and that is what this thread is about..
I have not had a good ride on one, and like it or not, 650b is coming harder and faster than the 29er thing did.
Many Mfgers missed the first wave of sales with 29ers and they don't want to miss the boat on the 650b thing.
I for one like the way that 29ers handle. I have had plenty of chances to ride 26 & 29er bikes back to back and 29 just works for me. I do however think that 650b has merit and based on the # of companies bringing out 650b bikes in the near future, this wheel size is going to be relevant in the very near future.
Scoff all you like at 29, but we ride in NJ and in NJ 29ers are far far outselling 26" wheels. 650b stands to convert those who have not embraced 29.
I just took a quick glance at Qbp (the nation's biggest parts distributor) and noted that they are stocking 20 unique 650b tires at this point. This alone shows the investment in this wheel size.
I personally look forward to getting some time on a 650b bike in the near future, and that is what this thread is about..
MikeP
Well-Known Member
So the big bike companies are on board for '14?
love my Missy but definately would love a good FS 650 to compliment it. I could see a 5" travel FS 650 being a good choice for me if the geo works. Hey anybody want to buy a little used Trek Top Fuel 8 😉
Robin
Well-Known Member
Jdog...you and I have talked about what bike might fit me best...i am VERY curious about the 650b and want to try it. Just haven't had the opportunity. Please keep me in the loop.
I've owned both 26ers and 29ers. I have personal issues with both...perhaps meeting in the middle will help 😀
I've owned both 26ers and 29ers. I have personal issues with both...perhaps meeting in the middle will help 😀
This is the word on the street. The wheels, rims and tires are all showing up already.
This is a little bit of a sales tool IMO to sell more bikes by the bike companies, but I think that the 5" travel segment is ripe for picking for 650b.
Many people are testing 650b on various 26er frames to figure out if they like 650b. (This fits only some frames btw)
i have never heard of anyone going back to 26" once they give it a shot.