Lance

jShort said:
Will we get a quote from tommyd?
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Masters CX World Champ Steve Tilford did a blog post a while back on the real Tommy D ... apparently, Danielson's PED use was laughably obvious to everyone who raced against him before he became "elite". He was an also-ran in college MTB, and then a year later was killing it on the elite road level.

This whole thing with the other guys coming out about their past usage, giving a weak mea culpa, and getting only a 6 month suspension for it pretty much shows that this whole thing is a joke. USADA could give two sh*ts about cleaning up the sport. For a guy like Danielson, who (if you believe Tilford) would have no career at all without PEDs, wouldn't a six month suspension only serve to make him more likely to go back and do it again? I mean, seriously, according to Tilford (who has no reason to make this up) Danielson manufactured a career out of PED use. A six month suspension -- during the off-season, no less! -- only reinforces the notion that it was well worth it for him. And Vaughters can speak all he wants about the guys racing for him racing clean. If any of them lose their contract and go to another team, they'll be pumping up once again in no time. It's all a joke. I say let them do it. Who cares what a bunch of delusional pros want to make themselves believe they "need" to do to keep it fair? After reading Hamilton's book, my only lasting reaction is that I am glad I never wanted to be a pro cyclist. It's a depressing, pathetic existence.

Oh -- and I apologize for the rant ... sometimes I just need to go postal ... 😀
 
Shaggz said:
about as awesome as the dollars that were spent supporting the usps team...
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Awesome use of tax dollars advertising for the post office at all. Who else am I going to buy stamps from? Nobody mails packages with usps on purpose.
 
Ehh, its professional sports, its entertainment, its a business. Who cares if they dope, we don't watch them ride bikes because they are good people of high moral fiber, we watch them because they are badass on bikes and its entertaining. All pro sports are about achieving an edge, because the better you are as an athlete, the more you get paid. Its happened in the past and it will continue to happen.

One of the newest ESPN 30 for 30 documentary's is on Ben Robinson's doping as a track athlete. There are alot of parellels, and it goes pretty deep into the athletes' reasoning for doing it. The performance gains they see is incredible. Getting a glimpse of what goes on behind the scenes makes it almost impossible to think that doping/science isn't behind the incredible performance gains of athletes of the past couple of decades.
 
SpartaBard said:
Not really though. The argument that if everyone is doping makes it equal doesn't really stand. USPS had the best doctor to administer the doping. Plus, they paid off people so that they got advance warning about doping controls which other teams most likely did not.

That said... who knows. We will have to wait and see what happens. Hopefully they will just put a big red asterisk next to his name along with everyone else's name and move on to a cleaner sport.
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the teams with the most money get the best people to help them cheat. it's no different in any sport. the NFL currently has THE BEST cheaters b/c the league is making more and more and more money. i mean jeezus, you see the size of these guys. compare that to 10 years ago...then 20. it's insane.

Shaggz said:
about as awesome as the dollars that were spent supporting the usps team...
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gtluke said:
Awesome use of tax dollars advertising for the post office at all. Who else am I going to buy stamps from? Nobody mails packages with usps on purpose.
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i don't disagree with either of you, but i know the people that manage that business and you'd be surprised how little they really spend. they know they're hanging on to a dying method of communication.

ChrisRU said:
Ehh, its professional sports, its entertainment, its a business. Who cares if they dope, we don't watch them ride bikes because they are good people of high moral fiber, we watch them because they are badass on bikes and its entertaining. All pro sports are about achieving an edge, because the better you are as an athlete, the more you get paid. Its happened in the past and it will continue to happen.

One of the newest ESPN 30 for 30 documentary's is on Ben Robinson's doping as a track athlete. There are alot of parellels, and it goes pretty deep into the athletes' reasoning for doing it. The performance gains they see is incredible. Getting a glimpse of what goes on behind the scenes makes it almost impossible to think that doping/science isn't behind the incredible performance gains of athletes of the past couple of decades.
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^ that. exhibit a: Ray Lewis.
 
ChrisRU said:
Ehh, its professional sports, its entertainment, its a business. Who cares if they dope, we don't watch them ride bikes because they are good people of high moral fiber, we watch them because they are badass on bikes and its entertaining. All pro sports are about achieving an edge, because the better you are as an athlete, the more you get paid. Its happened in the past and it will continue to happen.
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It's not just pro sports, unfortunately. Gran Fondo doping, anyone? (I'm gonna crush the short-track next year!) And to me anyway, it's more badass to race clean when everyone else is doping. I don't root for the machines.
 
seanrunnette said:
It's not just pro sports, unfortunately. Gran Fondo doping, anyone? (I'm gonna crush the short-track next year!) And to me anyway, it's more badass to race clean when everyone else is doping. I don't root for the machines.
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I agree with this. While i don't argue the fact that the pro's who make a living in cycling may need to dope to stay in the game, the sad thing is that it trickles down to the amateur cyclists. I don't think we can approve of doping on the pro level and turn around and disapprove of it for everyone else...it sends the wrong message.

I don't think doping will ever disappear, but it doesn't mean we should accept it and say its ok.
 
seanrunnette said:
It's not just pro sports, unfortunately. Gran Fondo doping, anyone? (I'm gonna crush the short-track next year!) And to me anyway, it's more badass to race clean when everyone else is doping. I don't root for the machines.
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pooriggy said:
I agree with this. While i don't argue the fact that the pro's who make a living in cycling may need to dope to stay in the game, the sad thing is that it trickles down to the amateur cyclists. I don't think we can approve of doping on the pro level and turn around and disapprove of it for everyone else...it sends the wrong message.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree that doping has no place in amatuer cycling, and I really can't comprehend the motiviation behind it. I don't agree with it in professional sports either, but that fact is the cheats are generally ahead of the rules and regulators so its a reality that exists.

While I don't agree with the cheatin/doping, I can understand why it happens. These athletes are dealing with really short windows in which they can maximize their earnings potential, all while being enveloped in a behind the scenes culture that seemingly embraces it. Lance played the cards he had, got paid, and he is still a celebrity.
 
Wonder if lance had come clean with everyone else would they all still only been suspended for 6months in the off season or did they get rewarded for giving lance?
 
ChrisRU said:
Don't get me wrong, I agree that doping has no place in amatuer cycling, and I really can't comprehend the motiviation behind it.
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Athletes in general just want to be bigger/stronger/faster/better/etc. and doping is either a shortcut or the next step after you feel like you have reached your natural peak. In powerlifting, steroid use is rampant even though there is no professional powerlifting worth mentioning and therefore no prospect of someday making the big bucks.
 
gtluke said:
Awesome use of tax dollars advertising for the post office at all. Who else am I going to buy stamps from? Nobody mails packages with usps on purpose.
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Just for clarity, the sponsorship was aimed at express service, where FedEx, UPS, DHL were dominating. The records exist, but I believe USPS saw a significant increase in business during the sponsorship years, well beyond the small investment in the team. (Eg versus normal TV advertising rates of return)
 
I am not professing Lance's innocence, only pointing out the issue with the evidence.

The affidavits read as one would expect where the author received a six-month suspension to be served in part over the off-season. The best Levi can muster is "Floyd Landis told me..." or "Lance said... and I understood that to mean...". Really? Pure hearsay (which would not be admissible in court) and conjecture. Why would the USADA cut such a sweet deal with Levi if this was the best they could get out of him. Makes no sense at all from a legal standpoint.

And now for my personal opinion: Levi, TommyD, Vande Velde, Hincapie, etc. can all go to hell. They lied to all of us. My son holds them up as idols. WTF am I supposed to say to my kid? "Sorry dude, turns out the whole freaking sport is full of dopers and liars." They should have received lifetime bans also - fair is fair. I don't know what is worse, doping 5 years ago, or implicitly lying about it after the fact. I will never think the same of them and consider them in the same camp as Landis. What a freaking shame.
 
1speed said:
Ummm ... no it's not.
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really? i'll argue the opposite all day. even at the GU level, it's a PED. protein shakes? PED. creatine? PED. why take them if not to get better? it is a slippery slope and as athletes progress and competition gets more fierce, it's natural to look for more potent enhancers. at the top levels, those enhancers, while they vary and are significantly more potent, are still enhancers. for the elite, the trip from legal to illegal is a quick one.

bloodninja said:
Athletes in general just want to be bigger/stronger/faster/better/etc. and doping is either a shortcut or the next step after you feel like you have reached your natural peak. In powerlifting, steroid use is rampant even though there is no professional powerlifting worth mentioning and therefore no prospect of someday making the big bucks.
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one of the reason i stopped powerlifting. i had pretty much maxed myself out with the legal PEDs, i.e. protein, creatine and whatever the energy pill/drink du jour was. to get to the next level and be really competitive, it was a choice: stop or utterly destroy my body. easy choice...for me anyway.

TedH said:
Just for clarity, the sponsorship was aimed at express service, where FedEx, UPS, DHL were dominating. The records exist, but I believe USPS saw a significant increase in business during the sponsorship years, well beyond the small investment in the team. (Eg versus normal TV advertising rates of return)
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yup, exactly. it was an ROI game and the USPS saw some serious benefits from it.
 
bonefishjake said:
really? i'll argue the opposite all day. even at the GU level, it's a PED. protein shakes? PED. creatine? PED. why take them if not to get better? it is a slippery slope and as athletes progress and competition gets more fierce, it's natural to look for more potent enhancers. at the top levels, those enhancers, while they vary and are significantly more potent, are still enhancers. for the elite, the trip from legal to illegal is a quick one.
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I wouldn't argue that different types of electrolyte and/or endurance foods are or aren't PEDs. You could argue from your POV all day because it depends on how you define "PED". By your rationale, water is a PED -- why drink water during a race if not to feel good enough to finish? If the only criteria is that a thing makes you better, then anything you take in to keep yourself from following the natural course of exhaustion and fuel-depletion is a PED.

My statement was in reaction to your notion that it's a slippery slope. It's not. It's a really long trek through many peaks and valleys before you get to the final slope toward banned substances. A gel is a sensible way to keep your mitochondria pumping during exercise. A PED (or a PED-type process) isn't off-setting depletion -- it's increasing through unnatural means the factors that create performance. No one eats a gel and can beat someone better than themselves because of it. Can they beat someone of equal skill who didn't take one because they have a little extra something in the tank at the end of a race? Probably, but I would argue in that case that their skills were not equal from the start. Racing is more than pedaling a bike for two hours. It's planning, it's working within your own physical limits and pushing on them. And recognizing when you are hungry and need a gel is a part of that. Pumping unnatural oxygen carrying blood cells or the means by which to make your body create them unnaturally is not. A gel is a small amount of basic fuel -- sugars and maybe some other electrolytes. They don't have a differential impact on different people (perhaps negligibly so.) But PEDs? Very different, because we all have a natural ability level that is altered by PEDs, and that altering isn't constant. If I have shitty lungs and my hematocrit is really low, and you have a naturally occurring level that's much higher, I would get a greater performance benefit from EPO than you would. Whatever my natural ability would be would be increased by a greater factor than yours. That's not how GU or protein shakes work. They just replenish stuff you burned -- they don't create somethign that was never there.

I get your rationale for GU being a PED, and I even get your idea that the real PEDs and gels or energy drinks could be linked, but I think it's a much wider gap between them than you imply. I take in GUs (actually, HammerGel because it tastes better! 😀) so I can finish a race without my muscles burning up and turning into immovable objects. They don't make me better at racing. They just make sure that despite my best efforts, I don't burn away every ounce of muscle glycogen before I'm done.
 
I got those new cliff double shots with 2x caffeine and I attacked strava segments like never before.
 
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