Blair
Well-Known Member
I agree with this article, its a lose lose proposition just like what roger clemmens has been fighting for the past 10 years. What a waste of time and money, Lance is right to bow out of the insanity.
Lance
- Thread starter bonefishjake
- Start date
I agree with this article, its a lose lose proposition just like what roger clemmens has been fighting for the past 10 years. What a waste of time and money, Lance is right to bow out of the insanity.
Gotta say I don't agree here. The author is working from some assumptions that just ain't so, conflating this process with a courtroom trial and passing blood-tests as proof of innocence -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...0c41_story.html?socialreader_check=0&denied=1
"USADA has declared victory and announced it would ban the retired cyclist for life... There has been no trial, no due process, but in the minds of many, that testimony outweighs the results of hundreds of drug tests.
People lie. Blood and urine usually don’t. And if they do, they don’t lie 500 times."
He wasn't retired. He was still competing in events governed by USADA and WADA regulations. This is not a criminal trial. He is being penalized for violating the anti-doping rules that he agreed to compete under. Just like the five other people named. All of whom were also still active in cycling. And, just like people, blood and urine do lie. That's the cheating part. That's why blood testing is only part of the USADA, WADA and (supposedly) UCI investigations. To turn it into the gold-standard of proof (which it never has been) just makes it easier to cheat. Using that standard, when Tom Simpson died on Mont Ventoux with a pocket full of amphetamines, he was a clean rider.
"And if we, like Armstrong, just want to give up, are we guilty of something as well?"
Yes, allowing the end to justify the means.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...0c41_story.html?socialreader_check=0&denied=1
"USADA has declared victory and announced it would ban the retired cyclist for life... There has been no trial, no due process, but in the minds of many, that testimony outweighs the results of hundreds of drug tests.
People lie. Blood and urine usually don’t. And if they do, they don’t lie 500 times."
He wasn't retired. He was still competing in events governed by USADA and WADA regulations. This is not a criminal trial. He is being penalized for violating the anti-doping rules that he agreed to compete under. Just like the five other people named. All of whom were also still active in cycling. And, just like people, blood and urine do lie. That's the cheating part. That's why blood testing is only part of the USADA, WADA and (supposedly) UCI investigations. To turn it into the gold-standard of proof (which it never has been) just makes it easier to cheat. Using that standard, when Tom Simpson died on Mont Ventoux with a pocket full of amphetamines, he was a clean rider.
"And if we, like Armstrong, just want to give up, are we guilty of something as well?"
Yes, allowing the end to justify the means.
Arwen's Mom
Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
point taken, and agree, does seem to be a witch hunt. Maybe I am looking at the world through rose colored glasses, why a witch hunt for him?
Arwen's Mom
Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
I have to say one thing about this Lance thing, just because he gave up the fight does NOT mean he is guilty. Period. If he doped he is guilty, NOT because he gave up the fight. Sometimes walking away is the better thing to do and should NOT be an admission of guilt in and of itself. Exclamation point.
1speed
Incredibly profound yet fantastically flawed
I don't know if my opinion puts me in the crosshairs of what Rusty called "acceptance of mediocrity", but I would disagree (and I think - or perhaps hope - I explain why.)
At any rate, another country heard from ...
At any rate, another country heard from ...
Fogerson
Former Resident Nerd
Well said and written. Whatever fuzz was in my mind, of which there was little but there, is gone. I don't think I care anymore either. Kudos.
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He didn't raise that money. LAF and everyone who contributed did. And they'll continue to, whether it's through LAF, which is a great organization irrespective of Armstrong's standing, or through another organization. Cancer will be there long after this kerfluffle is over. And so will people willing to help. But having started LAF doesn't mean he gets a pass. Or shouldn't.
I think that calling it the Lance Armstrong Foundation has created a lot of this tension. It's too tied up with his image, so that to tarnish it is to tarnish the organization, which I think, and this is me way out on a limb, created a pretty sweet shield to hide behind. If he'd called it something without his name in it, it might not be seeing the funding ding that has been happening over the past year.
So the question might be, why, knowing that folks are trying to take you down, do you tangle your image with an organization that does such good work, risking the mission of the foundation should things not go well personally?
Sean, were you aware that donations have been up 25x since the USADA release?
I don't know what that means, but it sure doesn't seem like him being attached to the organization is causing any harm.
I don't know what that means, but it sure doesn't seem like him being attached to the organization is causing any harm.
THAT is worth all caps! If this is an example of the truth setting people's wallets free, that's ok by me.
SmooveP
Well-Known Member
Well written opinion piece. Not sure why I still care enough to keep chiming in on the subject. Notwithstanding my love for the movie Breaking Away, road racing never really captured my imagination. I'm more attuned to the DIY ethic of mountain biking vs. a sport where a guy in a team car hands you a replacement bike if you get a flat.
Part of what bugs me about the hero worship of elite athletes is the fact that the best of the best are typically blessed by superior genetics. Then give them the world's best trainers, coaches and doctors on top of that. And they still need to cheat? I'm more impressed by the average, overweight schmuck who gets his ass off the couch and onto a bike and achieves some level of fitness and skill.
Besides, this is a mountain biking forum. Why do we care about some roadie who only won one race a year - in France.
Arwen's Mom
Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains
wonderturtle
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by SmooveP
I'm more impressed by the average, overweight schmuck who gets his ass off the couch and onto a bike and achieves some level of fitness and skill.
that probably describes 1/2 of the peoiple on this site.
go us!
I'm more impressed by the average, overweight schmuck who gets his ass off the couch and onto a bike and achieves some level of fitness and skill.
that probably describes 1/2 of the peoiple on this site.
go us!
Agreed. There seems to be a general lack of understanding about the true context of conspiracy and a firm belief in moral relativism here. Hein Verbruggen makes Sepp Blatter seem almost principled.
I'd say Occam's Razor applies here. And perversely, I'm looking forward to Tyler's book with Dan Coyle due out on Lance's birthday.
MST.ESQ
New Member
From a legal standpoint, arbitration only provides the most basic of procedural due process protections. Courts really can only review to determine whether the arbitrators observed a modicum of due process in presentation of evidence. Thus the reason the Texas judge could not nothing until the proceedings went forward. Now the reason many contracts no longer contain arbitration clauses - courts will not review to determine whether the evidence was sufficient or whether the rule of law was followed. "Conviction" was certain given the manner in which the arbitrators were appointed by USADA. No reason to fight.
Tygard did this for his own personal aspirations. Knowing that Hamilton, Landis and Frankie A. are all he needed to secure a "conviction" with a hand-picked arbitration panel, we knew this was coming. This is why Lance stated very early on that he would no longer fight these charges. He was well advised by his attorneys that "conviction" was certain. By not fighting the charges, the evidence does not get released. However, we may hear much of it in Bruneel's arbitration.
What I find even more shocking is the fact that Tygard will not shut up. There was no reason to release the statement that 5 TDF titles could have been retained had Lance cooperated. Tygard is still fighting/justifying his actions in the public domain. That is totally unacceptable and merely illustrates how this case had everything to do with his personal aspirations.
14 years ago. There was no reason to bring this prosecution "to save the sport." Other athletes in the US were stripped of titles without positive tests and everyone had been on notice of these new standards. After Contador's 2yr ban for very trace amounts of clembuterol and plasticizers, I think everyone is on edge with testing today. The only this Tygard has proven is that you need to gift your winnings to your next of kin before you retire since the US taxpayers will need to fund a witch hunt even though you passed 14 years of controls. Regardless of whether you believe Lance doped, this is a ridiculous precedent. I feel bad for Taylor and Tejay. They have to grow in this sport knowing they have a target on their backs and can be brought down decades later by purely circumstantial evidence.
I hope the UCI appeals and CAS reverses. They should distinguish this from the last 20 or so cases that actually contained physical evidence, etc.
Tygard did this for his own personal aspirations. Knowing that Hamilton, Landis and Frankie A. are all he needed to secure a "conviction" with a hand-picked arbitration panel, we knew this was coming. This is why Lance stated very early on that he would no longer fight these charges. He was well advised by his attorneys that "conviction" was certain. By not fighting the charges, the evidence does not get released. However, we may hear much of it in Bruneel's arbitration.
What I find even more shocking is the fact that Tygard will not shut up. There was no reason to release the statement that 5 TDF titles could have been retained had Lance cooperated. Tygard is still fighting/justifying his actions in the public domain. That is totally unacceptable and merely illustrates how this case had everything to do with his personal aspirations.
14 years ago. There was no reason to bring this prosecution "to save the sport." Other athletes in the US were stripped of titles without positive tests and everyone had been on notice of these new standards. After Contador's 2yr ban for very trace amounts of clembuterol and plasticizers, I think everyone is on edge with testing today. The only this Tygard has proven is that you need to gift your winnings to your next of kin before you retire since the US taxpayers will need to fund a witch hunt even though you passed 14 years of controls. Regardless of whether you believe Lance doped, this is a ridiculous precedent. I feel bad for Taylor and Tejay. They have to grow in this sport knowing they have a target on their backs and can be brought down decades later by purely circumstantial evidence.
I hope the UCI appeals and CAS reverses. They should distinguish this from the last 20 or so cases that actually contained physical evidence, etc.
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It's possible CAS will reverse this, if it's taken to them. And that'd be that. Everyone would have had their day in "court". And I'd shut the hell up. But until that happens...
The Judge that rejected Armstrong's constitutionality argument said in his opinion that he considered the USADA arbitration process fair.
About Tygart's statement, there's more:
The lifetime ban imposed by the US Anti Doping Agency on Lance Armstrong could yet be reduced, states USADA’s CEO Travis Tygart, providing the Texan testifies truthfully about his time in the sport.
Tygart said the sentence would have been different “if he would have been truthful and willing to meet to help the sport move forward for the good,” he told USA Today. “Of course, this is still possible and we always remain open, because while the truth hurts, ultimately, from what we have seen in these types of cases, acknowledging the truth is the best way forward.”
As for Taylor and Teejay, the easiest way to avoid all this is not to dope.
Blair
Well-Known Member
I'm curious how Lance could possibly lose through this arbitration process. He goes into it saying I didn't cheat and I have 500+ drug tests to prove it. How many others do they have against him and what are their stories? It's his word against theirs so what would need to be done to overturn Lance's evidence and statement?
Translated:
"Show up and kiss my ass, and we'll see what we can do."
KNEEL before ZOD!!
The arrogance of this agency is amazing.
MST.ESQ
New Member
The case was dismissed without prejudice to refiling after the hearing. The Judge did not reject the constitutionality argument but merely stated that it was premature and that the notice, if not supplemented and Armstrong provided sufficient disclosure prior to the hearing, he would review the case again and likely rule in Armstrong's favor. The Judge merely ruled that since the hearing had not yet taken place, he could not yet rule that due process rights have been violated.
Tejay and Taylor still need to be fearful. Pass all tests and still face being stripped of titles. Has this happened before in the absence of any physical evidence or positive tests?
I did not respond to the comment that Tygard is still willing to consider a reduction because it defies logic.
Tejay and Taylor still need to be fearful. Pass all tests and still face being stripped of titles. Has this happened before in the absence of any physical evidence or positive tests?
I did not respond to the comment that Tygard is still willing to consider a reduction because it defies logic.
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Blair
Well-Known Member
I think it can be explained this way: We all cheated and never won, so there's no way you(Lance) could have not cheated and won 7 times. Their point of view makes sense but they can't prove anything and they're pissed so he's guilty by association.